Episode 79 Championing Depth Therapy vs. Quick Fixes

Title:  Championing Depth Therapy vs Quick Fixes

Guest:  Dr. Linda Michaels

Distribution Date:  Monday, May 18, 2026

 

Welcome back. This is the Mind Dive Podcast, and we are very excited today to be joined by Dr. Linda Michaels. I'll start with a bio for Dr. Michaels. She is a licensed psychologist located in Chicago, and she is the co-founder of the Psychotherapy Action Network, which promotes and modernizes psychotherapy for today's society. Linda writes, speaks, and consults about the intersection of psychology and culture, exploring what makes therapy transformative in modern life. She holds a doctorate in Clinical Psychology from the Illinois School of Professional Psychology and completed the psychology, excuse me, completed the Chicago Psychoanalytic Institute's Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy program. Her educational background also includes an MBA from Wharton and a bachelor's degree from Harvard. She is the author of a new book, “Advancing Psychotherapy for the Next Generation, Humanizing Mental Health Policy and Practice,” which brings together voices from around the world to rethink how therapy is practiced, taught, and experienced. We're very excited today to talk about her new book, her journey in bridging clinical work and culture, and what makes therapy truly transformative in today's world. Welcome, Dr. Michaels. Welcome.

 

Thanks for coming on.

 

Thank you. Great to be here.

 

Well, we start with kind of the same question every time because we're always interested in it as co-hosts. But can you start by telling us a little bit about your career? Especially what inspired you to start Psychotherapy Action Network, what you saw as the need in the field for this organization?

 

Yeah, absolutely. I am a career changer entering the field of psychology a little late, and taking the long way around, so to speak. My dad is actually a psychiatrist, and so I immediately went in the opposite direction into the field of business. And I actually learned a lot there that has been helpful in starting and growing this organization. But when I entered the psychology field, it was a lot of things that were very concerning. And, in conjunction with a couple of colleagues, Nancy Burke and Janice Muir, there was a conference in Chicago in 2017. It was sponsored by the Chicago Center for Psychoanalysis, and it was really a multidisciplinary conference about some of the things you already spoke to, Kerry, about the practice of therapy, the policies, insurance, all those kinds of things, looking at the bigger picture, the bigger landscape. And there are so many problems. Access to care is a huge issue. So many people need help, and so few actually find the help that they need and then can actually afford it. And even though, for example, stigma is finally decreasing, which is good, people are not so scared to say, I need some help. But public understanding of therapy, of different kinds of therapy, of what might work best for them, is very limited and also rife with biases and misinformation and misperceptions. And that might be driving a lot of people away from actually getting the help they need. So, a lot of different things came together, and we said, you know, we want to do something about this. We know that there are a lot of therapies out there that can be deeply helpful and transformative to people, and we want to try to clear away the misunderstandings and educate and empower the public with reliable information and also support the graduate students and the clinicians who are providing this care.

 

I again just can't say enough about how much I agree with this having been a problem, continues to be a problem, and there's such a need for better public information about psychotherapy, and then that we also utilize the public to understand what the need is.

 

Right. Well, it sounds like you've actually done research into understanding what essentially what do people want from psychotherapy and what do they expect.

 

Exactly.

 

I'm curious what kind of stuff you found.

 

Yeah, yeah.

 

It's actually fascinating, and that draws.  I thought, well, you know, finally becoming a psychologist, I would get away from the business world once and for all. But no, those market research studies that we have completed, along with a colleague of mine and my friend, Santiago Dalbois, who is a similar career-changing trajectory, we both did a lot of market research for corporate America in our first careers, and have done a lot of these kinds of studies, like how to educate consumers, how to dispel biases or misinformation. These are one way of looking at it, these are marketing problems. And so we said, we know what to do with that kind of a thing. We have the tools; we have the experience to analyze those problems. And so, we've done a couple nationwide large-scale market research studies with qualitative and quantitative arms. We have gotten feedback responses from over 3,000 people, very large samples. And what we found is really, you know, a fascinating story. We asked people, what do you want from therapy? They said, well, to start, it's got to be a safe, non-judgmental, non-shaming space, okay. They really want to be able to change repeating patterns that are not working for them in their lives and open up more choice for them. And they really understand, contrary to a lot of advertising and what insurance companies want you to think, people really understand therapy takes some time. It's not a quick fix, and the problems that people are confronting have often taken quite a bit of time to materialize.

 

So they understand years of developing the problem.

 

Years, if not generations, yes. And so people understand, you know, it's going to take time. I have to invest, and this is actually a worthwhile investment I can make in myself to go through therapy. They get that it's about the relationship with the therapist, that that is really important and fundamental. And what we really found is that over 70% of people said they look to therapy to really help them get to the root of themselves and their issues. And that, you know, is specifically what depth therapies, relational therapies are really focused on. So it's really kind of a very interesting match between what the public wants and what relational depth therapies can offer.

 

Well, which is really interesting to me because, you know, I and you say and you sort of talk in your book about how, you know, really a critique of, I guess, what you would call superficial therapies, which you know, in a large part have become kind of, you know, bread and butter. Yeah, first line, what's often taught, I think. First line, certainly, in medical schools and in psychiatry residencies, and I think in psychology as well. Even though I think deep down, like all the experts keep telling us that you know, that there's more to this than just that, but all the same. So I don't know, can you say more about that?

 

I mean, you know, the public really does understand that there is something going on underneath those symptoms, that superficial level, and they really want to get to that. And of course, they don't have all the terminology and understanding that a professional would, but they intuitively know that there's more going on underneath the surface. And they also told us they understand or believe that it's connected to understanding their past, where they came from, how the past influences lives on in the present. So again, intuitively, I think that the public is well aligned with a depth therapy approach. And that, you know, we asked them one of the questions was would you rather have a shorter therapy that focused predominantly on managing or reducing symptoms? Or a therapy that would take longer but would help you get to the root? And 90% said yes, I want to get to the root. Even if it takes longer, that's what I want. So the messages are loud and clear from what the public really wants. It's all the kind of corporate systems that I think are really in the way. You know, what’s being taught in grad schools, what insurance wants to pay for or not pay for, all those kinds of things are really what's out of alignment with what the people want and what many therapists want to help them with.

 

Interesting. I'm reminded of a recent episode with Dr. John Allen, a shared friend and colleague of ours. Yes, and I think one of the things he even said in the last episode we did with him, talking about his most recent book on caring, is he said people want to talk about their problems. And I think that's a really simple and profound way to think about it--- is that people want to talk about their problems. And that so often, and I'm certainly somebody who utilizes a broad range of different interventions. I work in patients, so I'm working with people who are highly symptomatic. So I use a broad range of interventions and I find them useful. I think when a protocol or a manualized treatment doesn't allow space for people to be able to talk about their problems because it deviates from the protocol, that's where things get rough. Because again, even people who are highly symptomatic want space to talk about their problems. And the stuff that's contributing to symptoms, that's going on under the surface, again, is very important.

 

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think John Allen, I mean, I just you know, he love his wisdom and experience and how he talks about, you know, yes, talking with people about their problems in plain old therapy, you know, and these skills of empathy, listening, relationship building, caring, you know, those are crucial. And unfortunately, what we're seeing more and more in today's graduate school programs is, you know, Kerry, as you were saying, a focus more on the manualized instructions and things that are focused on symptoms. And look, everyone wants symptom reduction. Everyone wants to feel better, they want their symptoms to go away and not bother them, of course. But people want more than that.

 

Sure.

 

And maybe we can think about another piece that you just shared about some of the some of the barriers. And so I know one of the goals and one of the core arms of Psychotherapy Action Network is advocating for strong standards and advocating for what is therapy that leads to sustainable long-lasting change. I wonder if you can share a little bit about the public policy part of the work and specifically typically thinking about who and what you're up against. So, I mean, I'm thinking about things like managed care and private equity involvement and just some of the ways that there are a lot of players who are invested in quick fixes, is my sense. Anyways, that was a really long question, so feel free to take that wherever.

 

Yeah, yeah. No, but it's such a great question because yes, when we started Psychotherapy Action Network, the venture capital, private equity, big tech, that was not really a part of the mental health landscape at all. It was more insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, those sorts of things. But increasingly, yes, we have to really contend with these corporate players who see a profit potential in our space. So yeah, a lot of the policy things that we have done, you know, quite recently. We have submitted comments to the federal government, to the FDA, to Health and Human Services about AI chatbots. You know, should those be used, should they be considered medical devices and regulated? How should we think about using AI and mental health care? Of course, the public is already using chatbots and AI, and many therapists are very concerned, other therapists are very excited and intrigued. But at the end of the day, I think we really have to remember these are products developed by corporations and investors whose goal is to sell us ads and make money. So yeah, AI chatbots, hot topic, of course. We have push back on misleading advertising from platform companies like BetterHelp, also Talkspace. We were concerned about their business models and lack of protections of confidentiality, which is really such a core component of therapy. And yeah, and the federal government with our comments, and comments from many other organizations as well, did fine BetterHelp was a little bit of a slap on the wrist because it amounted to $10 a person, was how much BetterHelp refunded their customers. So I know that's what your privacy is worth to BetterHelp, unfortunately, not that much. And our letters regarding Talkspace actually resulted in Talkspace suing us as an organization and suing the co-founders individually for defamation and libel. And they claimed $40 million in damages to their business. And that was one of the scariest times in my life trying to just even fathom how to start defending ourselves against that. But we did, and the case was ultimately dismissed. But you talk about big players and big money, and they're aggressive. I mean, what that says to me is how vulnerable they really are.

 

Yeah, I'm going to go. Yeah, since you mentioned the government too, you know, HSS, they have a new action plan really to kind of curb psychopharmacology and they put in a plug for psychotherapy. And I don't know if you see this as helpful. I mean, I have a lot of different thoughts about it that aren't relevant to this. But, yeah, what are your thoughts as far as how that, you know, putting more of a focus on psychotherapy?

 

Well, yeah, yes. I mean, a lot of thoughts about HHS in general and the government. I will say that the focus on psychotherapy does seem to be aligned with what people are actually doing. There has been, over the last five to ten years, an increase in people doing psychotherapy-only treatments and a decrease in medication-only treatment.

 

So it is aligned with the general population or in certain populations?

 

In general population, yeah, at a high, very high level. So, it is aligned with that. But yes, I don't know exactly what is-- I don't really understand what is motivating HHS.

 

So it does seem to contradict an earlier, recent, but earlier, report that you know, the Make America Healthy Again report, the MAHA report, in which there's actually quite a bit in that report about therapy being overly used. They cite Abigail Schrier’s  Bad Therapy book as sort of the Bible. Like they really cite that as this one source that shares. And if you're not familiar with that, not you, I'm sure you're familiar with Dr. Michaels, but listeners, if you're not familiar with that book, it's this book that really talks about how there's this culture of therapy of these young people growing up that's really making them weak and worse and getting too focused on their mental health. And there's other books too. Like I just came across Therapy Nation by Jonathan Alpert, which is similar that America's too obsessed with therapy, and we're making people worse by having them go to therapy. And I wonder actually, this was one of the questions I was I was hoping to sneak in here with you today, which is that these kind of up-and-coming waves of therapy critique, where it's not good to talk about your feelings. You need to get into your life and do other things, stop being so obsessed with your feelings, if that's something that, as an organization, you guys have been contending with?

 

Well, we don't specifically have an initiative on that yet. Perhaps we will, but what I really think is going on there is, I mean, the reality is there are many more people with serious and severe emotional and psychological problems of abuse, trauma, addiction, who need help and cannot get it or find it. And that is the bigger reality. But what I don't appreciate, and what I think is not helpful, is kind of this new world of TikTok therapists and influencers and people who are co-opting diagnostic labels and things like that. And I don't know if that's more what some of these books are focused on.

 

I think part of the concern is just pathologizing everything.

 

Yes. Our most recent episode for April, we had Dr. Alton Bozeman talking about debunking some of the myths around autism and ADHD. And really, I mean, like a huge part of the conversation was that it is alive and well on TikTok and other similar sites that anything has to do with autism. You know, you rub your feet together at night, you're autistic. That's becoming this huge problem. And so I got to think there is a meet in the middle somewhere with this, but it is concerning to me that I keep seeing this messaging. And I'm starting to hear it from parents: are you sure they really need therapy? I think we're dwelling on this too much. And I'm like, your kid is really struggling. Having a space for them to talk is a good thing.

 

Well, I think that's a benefit. You know, it sounds like the basis of lots of your work is evidence-based. A term that sometimes is misused, but all the same, you know. But you know, so you know, you're going to the science and not just giving out another opinion. Maybe we should talk a little bit more about that and what you've done.

 

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, we are, we do try to do our own research, have research and evidence-informed positions, and another way that we have used the research that we have done, for example, is we have the market research on what people know about therapy, what they want from therapy. We were able to identify a lot of needs that people have, things they don't understand at all, things we think would be helpful for them to know more about, and we have developed a new website, a new tool for them with articles, videos, as well as a nationwide database of clinics that offer low-cost therapy. Because over and over again, we heard “I just can't afford it, it's too expensive,”etc. And so we're in the midst of launching this right now. It's called Therapy That Sticks. And, you know, I'm hoping this will be a research-informed tool that will really help the public be more educated and feel more confident in searching out and engaging in therapy.

 

Well, what's your experience with that? I mean, because a lot of the complaints I hear from people about therapy is that it's just hard to get good quality therapy that they can afford.

 

Well, it is. There are a lot of things going on. I mean, just one of the statistics is that every year, about 50% of the master's graduates in the therapy fields, social work counseling, etc., do not go on to get licensed. So, we could be adding, you know, 50% more licensed therapists every year than we are. And the main reason is these folks said they can't afford it. They get paid so little when they're in this pre-licensed phase, they just can't afford to continue. So, I mean there are a lot of structural problems, I think, in our field that are contributing to this access problem. And they don't all have to do, or they can't all be solved by giving everyone a chatbot and having them talk to their phone in their pocket. It's not going to work.

 

Well, and that sort of brings the final arm of your organization. So we talked about the research arm, the public policy arm, and then finally, mentorship and training and education and helping people to find mentorship around these depth-oriented therapies because, as you've alluded to, a lot of people's trainings have a heavy focus on a particular kind of therapy model that might be more manualized, symptom-focused. And so then people might get into their careers and be like, I don't actually have a ton of supervision or mentorship around doing some of these other kinds of therapy. So I wonder if you can talk a little bit about what this part of the organization looks like and really if there's any more to say about the undermining of this kind of therapy and why there's a need for this mentorship.

 

Yeah. I mean, I think the undermining of this therapy, of this family of therapies, which are evidence-based, which are highly effective, which have shown success for the long term for people in their lives, which at the end of the day is what people want. You know, the undermining and biasing against this family of therapies is tragic because these therapies can really help people, especially in in some situations where other therapies have not worked for these folks. So we should be teaching them, we should be making them available, we should be paying for them at the insurance level. And we have a mentorship program, I guess concretely, that's one way that we do this. But you know, through our listserv and all of our webinars and educational events, we're trying to show that these therapies are alive and well, people are using them and studying them, and they're happening right now in your neighborhood. So, we're really trying to both show and tell how these old stereotypes really just don't apply anymore and really need to be discarded.

 

Now we're there are researchers and I will say the listserv for Psychotherapy Action Network is incredible. And there are researchers and expert clinicians from around the country from very prestigious institutions like Harvard, like Columbia, that are part of this mentorship program that are doing this work. So again, this is such a legitimate way of doing therapy. And I mean again, we've had Jonathan Shedler on the podcast, Nancy McWilliams on the podcast, and other people who've spoken to the same thing that this is such an important, useful, evidence-based, effective way of doing therapy, and we need to keep having strong advocates for it because ultimately it helps people get better, which is what I think we all want.

 

Yeah.  So a lot of the people who listen to this are therapists and clinicians, and how do people learn more? How do they get involved?

 

Well, thank you for asking that. Folks can just find us online by Googling Psychotherapy Action Network or our convoluted acronym, which is PSIAN.org. Folks can reach out to me. We're also on social media, you know, all that stuff. They can find us and join our listserv at no cost. And you know, also if they want to throw in a few extra bucks, that would be great because we're an all-volunteer organization. And right now, I think we have over 6,500 members, individuals, and we have 90 different organizations that have joined us as well. And you know, we're trying to really bring like-minded folks together and use our collective voice to advocate for the work that we do because as we have talked throughout this conversation, I think, you know, we are up against the insurance industry and things like that. But I think even more, we're up against Google, Amazon, venture capital investors, private equity. I mean, and they have more money and more power than we will ever have. But we know a lot about how to help people, and we have to stick together.

 

Which is why I do before we end, and the whole conversation I've wanted to circle back to this. I just have to say I admire you so much, Dr. Michaels, in the champion that you are. This story with Talkspace, where again, you, your co-founders, you as a small nonprofit going up against this company with a lot of money and again just throwing this $40 million lawsuit at you. It feels like such a classic, like we're trying to scare you with money back, don't do this again. And for you guys to like fight it and to win the case, and to really be continuing to say, “no, we're not going to be scared of your money. We're going to keep fighting for what is right and we're going to do this with integrity,” is so cool. You are a champion, and I think that is super awesome.

 

Thank you, Kerry.

 

And I do encourage anybody who's listening to consider getting involved because again, if this is something that you, too, are interested in advocating for and considering, it's a very strong organization. It’s a very active one -- we were saying before we started the podcast that former podcast episode, Dr. Dresher, he's a part of Cyan and he's been our map.

 

We have fantastic members who are really dedicated to psychotherapy and trying to preserve and protect it to make it available for more people. So yes, I would welcome anyone who's interested to join us.

 

Well, we've been listening to Dr. Linda Michaels of the Psychotherapy Action Network. Please check out her new book, Advancing Psychotherapy for the Next Generation, Humanizing Mental Health Policy and Practice, and also check out her organization.

 

Yeah, thanks again for talking with us today.

 

Yes, thanks so much.

 

And you've been listening to the Mind Dive podcast. I'm your host, I'm Bob Boland. And I'm Kerry Horrell. And thanks for diving in.