Welcome to Mind Dive, Menninger's podcast for mental health professionals, with Robert Boland, MD, senior vice president and chief of staff, and Kerry Horrell, PhD. 
Podcast Focus
Each month, they dive into topics that fascinate them as clinical professionals and hopefully fascinate you, too. They examine dilemmas faced by professionals here at Menninger and colleagues across the nation while working with some of the most challenging cases. They explore the latest research and other trending topics on the minds of psychiatrists, psychologists and others who are interested in the treatment and study of the mind. Drs. Boland and Horrell make it a goal to cover information that gets little attention in formal training programs.
Most Recent Episodes
Episode 71: Understanding Overcontrolled and Under-Controlled Personalities
Ever worked hard, did everything “right,” and still felt unseen?
Our conversation with Dr. Ellen Astrachan-Fletcher gets to the heart of why: when control becomes a shield, it also becomes a wall. We dig into Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) and Radically Open Dialectical Behavior Therapy (RO DBT) and the hidden costs of overcontrol—perfectionism, emotional inhibition, and the quiet loneliness of feeling unknown—even in a crowded room.
We start with the bell curve of emotional control, where under-control and over-control live at opposite ends. Dr. Astrachan-Fletcher breaks down bio-temperament -- the built-in settings that shape threat and reward sensitivity, a detail versus global focus, novelty seeking, and inhibitory control. She shows how these traits steer coping long before we learn clinical “skills.”
If traditional DBT excels as treatment for under-control, RO DBT unlocks the stuck places for over-control by targeting openness, genuine vulnerability, and the social signals that invite connection. You’ll hear how small cues—polished fixes, self-sufficiency, quiet corrections—can accidentally signal superiority or distrust, leaving the most conscientious person out of the celebration.
We also unpack why so many clients cycle through higher levels of care for eating disorders and depression: they stabilize in structured settings, then return to lonely lives without the tools to build a “true connection.” RO DBT reframes feedback as a gift, uses playful teasing to lower perfectionistic armor, and treats social signaling as a change target—not a footnote. Along the way, we discuss ADHD, trauma’s masking effects, self-injury patterns in OC vs. UC, and how culture rewards control while overlooking its costs
If you’ve ever been “the nicest person no one really knows,“ this one’s for you. Learn how to move flexibly within your temperament, send warmer social signals, and practice safe vulnerability that actually deepens bonds.
Subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest “I feel seen” moment—these are great observations to share as they inform others and ourselves.
Listen to Mind Dive podcast wherever you get your podcasts and visit menningerclinic.org for more episodes.
Transcript
Meet the Hosts
Dr. Boland is an educator at heart with decades of experience teaching and mentoring psychiatry residents. In addition to his roles at Menninger, he is the executive vice chair of the Menninger Department of Psychiatry & Behavioral Sciences at Baylor College of Medicine.
A psychologist specializing in Young Adults, Dr. Horrell also loves teaching. She completed a predoctoral internship and postgraduate fellowship at Menninger and Baylor College of Medicine.
Both are well read, love canines (and have to resist rescuing too many) and are curious about many subjects.
Join Us
We hope you’ll join us on our podcast journey. And if you have a topic in mind that you would like us to dive into, drop us a note.
Mind Dive is available on all of the places you find your favorite podcasts.
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